In a hot seat coaching session on the #amwriting podcast, Jennie Nash coaches Brenna Humphreys on a nonfiction proposal for Where It Hurts: A Couple’s Guide to Kicking Prostate Cancer, noting a disconnect between the proposal’s tone/claims and the sample chapters. They discuss how “salesy” positioning and language that can read as antagonistic toward the medical system may create legal and traditional publishing risks, especially when offering what could be construed as medical advice.
Nash suggests shifting authority to lived experience and reframing the book as a framework for how couples navigate diagnosis and decision-making—using structures like key decisions, conversations, or “dates”—while keeping strong scene-based storytelling. Brenna agrees to substantially revise, aiming for a helpful stance that supports patients and partners with questions to ask, teamwork, and process rather than prescriptive medical directives.
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Transcript
Jennie Nash: [00:00:00] Hey, it’s Jennie, and I want to ask you a question. What’s the biggest challenge you’re facing with your book right now? Maybe you’re struggling to even get started. Maybe you’ve written thousands of words and lost your way. Maybe you finished a draft and you’re overwhelmed by how to revise it. That’s exactly why I’m running the Blueprint Summer Challenge starting July tenth.
Over six weeks, we’ll use the blueprint framework to help you gain clarity, solve problems, and move your manuscript forward. Whether you write nonfiction, memoir, or fiction, the goal is simple, make your book stronger and give you momentum to finish. You can start with our all-new blueprint course for just nineteen dollars.
And paid podcast subscribers will also receive access to live coaching sessions featuring me and author accelerator coaches that I’ve handpicked to help with this challenge. We’ll be diving into specific blueprint steps, answering questions, and coaching writers through real challenges in real time. If you’d like to spend this [00:01:00] summer making actual progress on your book, you’ll find all the details in the show notes.
Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.
Jennie Nash: This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time, and today I’m so excited to be talking to Brenna Humphries because we’ve almost literally never spoken before.
We just met, and you have a book proposal, and I’m gonna be coaching you on it the way I would coach, um, someone in our certification program. Practicum Two is coaching a full book proposal, so I’m just gonna do that, and we’re gonna see what happens, so [00:02:00] welcome Brenna.
Brenna Humphries: Thank you. I am, I am so excited to be here.
And thank you. I’ve been doing Jennie Nash crash course the past several days- ... so I’m really excited.
Jennie Nash: Well, thank you for being willing, um, to, to be in the hot seat. It’s so helpful to other people who are learning. And so just to quick set what’s happened before this call is Brenna was about to pitch a proposal for a nonfiction book that she had worked with one of our coaches on a blueprint for, and then built up her proposal using my book Blueprint for a Nonfiction Book.
And, um, I took a look at it and ended up making something like, I don’t know how many notes, but a lot. Um, and sending Brenna a giant, long editorial letter at, I think, midnight last night. So I don’t know how this landed with her yet or anything, so that’s where- I’m here. We’re good. She showed up, so we have some information.
[00:03:00] But, um, I just wanna start with asking- How did that all land with you, and are you okay?
Brenna Humphries: Oh, I’m so okay. No, I’m, I’m like, I am so grateful because, um, uh, I think you helped me dodge a bullet, first of all. Um, you know, it, your, your comments were right on, and in listening to the hot seat coaching that you’ve been doing with Andrew on the fiction side, I mean, I just, kind of just listening y- to you go through that process, it just reinforced for me how helpful the process is.
And your comments made perfect sense. I think maybe I didn’t put as much writing into the proposal as I clearly should have to articulate what I’m trying to get across with the tone, and I think the duality of the, the book that you’re seeing, the proposal, is so much a reflection of this is me writing it, but it’s got my husband’s voice in there as well.
So I think I, I’m very excited to dig into that with you.
Jennie Nash: Good. Good. Well, [00:04:00] being open, ‘cause I kind of, I kind of came at you pretty hard with some big things that had to change, and when somebody’s just about to pitch, and they’re ready, and they’re geared up, and I think when I first spoke to you a couple days ago, I was even like, “Do it.
Go. Hit send.” You were. Right? And then somebody’s like, “Wait. Stop. May- there might be some problems here.” You know, did you have any sort of a reaction of, “Uh-oh,” or, “I can’t,” or, “She doesn’t know what she’s talking about,” or any, any kind of that reaction?
Brenna Humphries: Well, certainly not the last one. I know you know what you’re talking about.
Um, yeah, of course. I mean, sh- I- everyone wants to get that feedback of like, “This is great. Hit send,” you know? I mean, of course. But, um, I think that you weren’t saying, “This is a piece of trash. Throw it out the door.” You were saying that it needs some clarification, and I think you know the business way better than I do, so, um, it’s helpful to have that.
And, um, yeah, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t discouraged. And, and I can [00:05:00] sort of see a way out, so I, I think that just getting it there, you know, it’s a little more work. Okay. Been working on it forever. Ready to work some more.
Jennie Nash: Yeah. Well, that’s amazing. Um, the reason I said, “Did you think she doesn’t know what she’s talking about?”
is that’s usually my reaction when I get- ... tough feedback. I’m like, “They, they don’t know what they’re talking about.” That’s usually my first reaction, and then I settle down, and I’m like, “Oh, maybe, maybe they do.” Um, okay. So why don’t you ... Let’s talk about just this first big thing, the top priority thing, which is the, there was a- Tone in the proposal, way the proposal was coming across, a structural thing that the proposal was kind of, you know, selling that then was not reflected in the chapters.
So a disconnect between what you were saying you were gonna do and then what you were doing, and a real [00:06:00] through line of, I guess I would just say confusion about what is it? What is this? So you’ve had a tiny bit of time to sit with it. Do you have any clarity on the answer of which of the two you’re feeling?
Not that we’re gonna get rid of one or the other, but the book has to be one thing, right? Like it has to- Yeah ... have a spine or a core or a, a point of view, a stance that’s, that’s one thing. So do you, do you have a sense of that?
Brenna Humphries: Yes and no. I mean, I, I, I, I’d like to work through it with you. But what I will say my initial reaction was, um, I felt like the proposal part needed to be, um, very salesy and very like, “Look at these huge numbers,” you know, “We’re gonna sell a million copies.”
And so, like, needing to make that, like, argument that this is a book that needs to be written versus the [00:07:00] pages where I feel like I’m talking to this wife or husband or partner or couple and saying, “Oh my God, I know you’re freaking out,” the C word, “Totally get it. And, and you wanna get it out as fast as you can.
But, um, from our experience and our learning and my husband’s research, there are some things you need to know before you just dive in.” And I know it kind of comes across as, as being, um, you know, questioning doctors and, and the establishment and all that. And, and that’s the part I need to work on massaging, because doctors are amazing, and I, I don’t have a problem with them at all.
You need them. Um, but the approach that my husband’s kind of taken is, you know, we’re like the CEO of this little company, right? That is our health and our body and our, you know, relationship and everything. And the doctors kind of work with us, and I don’t want to say for us as employees, but in a way, you know, we’re sort of consumers, and we’re going to them for advice [00:08:00] and help and things we can’t do.
Um, and they are part of a system that’s kind of flawed and is gonna kind of march you down that standard of care path, which, you know, and I, I think I mention it in the opening chapters, I had my eyes opened, like, big time during this process. I have doctors all over my family. I thought, “You know, these guys are looking out for us.
They have our best interests at heart.” And then when I was seeing what my husband was researching and sitting in these offices, there was such a massive disconnect that I was like, “Like, do doctors watch YouTube?” Like, “What’s happening here?” You know? So that’s the, the, I think the two different voices that you’re hearing.
Um- And I’ll just add real quick that I’ve been reading your memoir, if that’s okay, to find out- Oh, sure ...
Jennie Nash: but
Brenna Humphries: oh my gosh. A- and I think that your approach was just beautiful and so solid. Like, these are the lessons I learned, and I could see anybody who’s been freshly diagnosed with cancer, first of all, grabbing any book they can get their hands on.
But with your sort of memoir [00:09:00] style, and, and I had initially... I know it’s a million things, sorry. I had initially- No, I was- ... kind of written this as more of a memoir, and then I went to this class that was basically saying, “Well, memoirs won’t sell,” especially if you’re a white woman. No memoirs, you know? And so, but, but I think there’s more to it than just a memoir in this particular case anyway.
I think there’s our story, but then there’s also what we learned. So yeah.
Jennie Nash: Yeah.
Brenna Humphries: Help,
Jennie Nash: help. Um, so, well, first of all, this, there’s the absolutist thing, like memoirs won’t sell, a white woman can’t sell. I mean, when I wrote my book, my memoir about cancer, my, I had an agent, and she told me, “You c- the, the market’s saturated.
You can’t sell a me- a, you know, a cancer book.” Like, you’re gonna hear that kind of language all over the place, and you’re actually gonna hear it from me today, where I have an- Yep ... absolutist thing that I’m gonna say to you. Um- Yep ... any writer, when you hear anything like that from anyone, there is no absolute anything.[00:10:00]
Y- the thing you have to do is write the book you wanna write, and you have to be able to stand behind that book. And if you start watering it down, so this is right, this is the right big thing. If you start watering it down, like, “Well, the agents are gonna want this, and Jennie says that, and this editor says this other thing, and my beta reader said that,” and, you know, you’re just gonna flatten the whole thing out.
So the primary thing is for you to tap into the book that you want to write. And the ab- y- you know, if, if it’s memoir, you know, you’ll find a way to sell the memoir. I mean, like- Mm-hmm ... so it’s, it, you have to start with that. And the absolutist thing that I’m gonna say is that- I, I’m just pausing ‘cause I don’t, I don’t want to be reckless in what I’m about to say, but, but I think I believe it.
I do not think you can sell a book to a traditional publisher that’s ripping [00:11:00] apart the medical system from outside the medical system if you’re not a big influencer. There’s just too much liability, and- Totally hear you. Yeah ... there’s, there’s liability inherent in writing about medicine in, in any form other than, “This is my story.”
Mm-hmm. And you definitely step over the line. And-
Brenna Humphries: Okay.
Jennie Nash: Yeah ... the, so the thing is that I’m not gonna sit here and say, “Don’t do that.” What I’m gonna say is, if you want to do that, if that’s the book you want to write, you’ve got to know that you’re going into a very risky situation for traditional publishing.
But that just might then dictate the, how you publish, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That might just then mean maybe we don’t go that route. Maybe we go this, a different route. So that’s why the decision of what is it that you really want to, which book do you want to write, and the second point in my letter to you was [00:12:00] about w- what, what’s the promise that you’re giving to the reader?
Mm-hmm. You get to choose that. So when I say all that, do you think, “Okay, it’s more important to me to get the traditional deal than it is to have this,” I mean, I’m gonna just say antagonistic stance?
Brenna Humphries: Um, well, I, I think a big part of it is I don’t want to have an antagonistic stance. I want to have a helpful stance, and I think there’s an element of anger in terms of trying to, um, get the point across. There are men that are dying for no reason. There are people that are losing their quality of life for no reason.
It, it is terribly upsetting to me that this is happening. I, I don’t want to be some big take-on-the-system person. I want to write the book that if any friend of mine was [00:13:00] going through this, they could read it and they could learn from it and not make mistakes that we could have made.
Jennie Nash: Yeah.
Brenna Humphries: You know? And I, I feel pretty confident in the way we handled it.
It was terrifying for me because that wasn’t my style at all. That was my husband’s style. But going through it now and having seen how he handled it and how he took really complicated medical terminology and broke it down into something that we could both understand was amazing. So, um, yeah. So I, uh, I don’t know.
I mean, a, a traditional publishing deal would be great, but it’s not like the deal breaker necessarily. I don’t really feel like battling lawsuits for the rest of my life. I just want to help people, you know? Yeah. So I don’t really want to create a book that’s going to be a big litigious thing either. I, I’m not a, I don’t need to take on the system.
I just want to help people. I want people who are in this position to, to kind of feel less afraid and less alone and have- Yeah ... some, you know, things to go into their doctor’s office and the questions to [00:14:00] ask and the things to be ready for.
Jennie Nash: Yeah. Does that make sense? So, um, I don’t think we’ve said it out loud yet in this conversation, but what, um, Brenda’s book is about is prostate cancer.
So, um, and it’s, uh, well, the subtitle is A Couple’s... What is it?
Brenna Humphries: It’s called Where It Hurts: A Couple’s Guide to Kicking Prostate Cancer.
Jennie Nash: Right. So the publisher’s lawyers, you know, even with that subtitle, which is what I mentioned, are going to be like, “Ooh, you know, can we say this without evidence? Can we say this without...”
Um, so again- Y- y- your, no, your decision about ... Uh, what’s weird is when I read a lot of your writing and I listen to you speak, it doesn’t sound like ... I mean, you just said, “I don’t wanna take on the system. I don- a system. I don’t wanna get, be in this confrontational relationship with the medical community.
I’m writing this to help people.” Like, I hear you, [00:15:00] but in some of the pages, I mean, I have to say, at some points, I was, I was literally like, “Ugh!”
Outro: Like, “
Jennie Nash: Ugh! Oh, you can’t say that.” Oh, no. You know? Like, and I’m, and I’m not a lawyer, I’m not a, you know, anything, but, but it was like that’s, that’s a really bold stance you’re taking.
So- Like, which
Brenna Humphries: I, I’m curious if, if you recall any of those areas, just so we
Jennie Nash: can kind of- Yeah, let me see if I can go. I’ve got the document- Yeah ... in front of me. Well, even just the subtitle, Kicking Prostrate Cancer. Like, there are books out there, some of which I adore, and I’m gonna try to, I’m gonna try to think of some, because they’re not coming into my brain right now.
But there are books that, that take on all kinds of systems, and, and, you know, put a stake in the ground and say, um, you know, “Don’t go down this path.” And, um, actually I just read a book [00:16:00] called I think it’s called Heal Your Back Pain. It was published in the ‘90s, and I, I think it’s... I can’t remember the doctor’s name, but it was a doctor speaking.
I, I don’t have a back problem. My, one of my best friends does, and I’m read it- Mm-hmm ... ‘cause she read it, and I’m trying to understand and, and help her. But this was a doctor saying the entire medical establishment is treating back pain wrong, and, and his stance was, is, um, it’s an emotional reaction. Mm-hmm.
Your body is having, reacting to the emotions and stress in your life, and if you’re treating it like a structural problem, you’re, you’re going down the wrong path, and everybody’s wrong. I mean, that’s the stance of his book. But because he’s coming from the inside, and he’s got- Mm-hmm ... he had a thousand-patient, um, study that he was doing, he’s able to, to do that, right?
So it’s just gonna be so tricky for you [00:17:00] to, to sell that, that kind of book. So right at the subtitle, that’s, um, that’s what I mean. But even, I remember there was a line where you said, um, even giving advice like, “Don’t do what they say you should do. Take some time before you make a decision,” even that, I feel like every publisher lawyer- publisher’s lawyer is gonna be all over that, and be like, “You can’t give medical advice.
You, you, you’re not allowed,” right? “You’re not a licensed doctor. And what if there’s somebody who needs to do something tomorrow,” right? “And you’re telling them-”
Brenna Humphries: Yeah ... “
Jennie Nash: don’t?” Right?
Brenna Humphries: And I think we’re saying from the beginning that we’re not doctors. This is a collection of our research, and it is coming from doctors.
Um, what my husband did, basically, you know, when we got the diagnosis, he locked himself away for, for weeks, which now with AI, I guess [00:18:00] you don’t have to do quite as, quite as long. But he studied the Prostate Cancer Research Institute, which is saying all of this stuff. Um, he watched a lot of YouTube videos, and they weren’t, like, guru of the week.
They were, um, actual medical doctors that were speaking at conferences to other doctors. That was where he looked for his sources. So it is very grounded in actual medical speak, but I totally understand. You know, I don’t want to present myself as a physician in any way. It’s more... A- and so I wonder, ‘cause the, the format that you took with your memoir was very much like these are the lessons I learned going through this process.
These are the things... And I know a lot of them were a little bit more sort of lifestyle versus medical per se, and I’m, and I’m not done. You might have gotten into that a little bit more. But I’m curious if you feel like that type of an approach might be a better way of going about it, sort of saying, not, not saying you should do this, but we did this and we’re glad, and here’s why.[00:19:00]
Jennie Nash: Yes, so that’s a very different approach, is to say, like I’m thinking of a subtitle that would be something like One Couple’s Path to Saving, you know, Their Anatomy, their marriage, their sex life, and their life. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know, something, something like that. Like, this is what we did, this is how we did it.
Where you’re not giving advice, you’re not even saying ... See, this is the tricky thing. When people come up to you at a party and they say, whisper, “My husband was just diagnosed too,” or, “I was just diagnosed too,” there’s nothing wrong with saying, “Oh, please, take a hot second. Don’t do what they said.” Um, that’s what people do for each other.
But when you’re putting it in a book-
Brenna Humphries: Mm-hmm ...
Jennie Nash: you would have to position it much more like, “This is what we did, and we’re so glad we did. And it was only X amount of time, and we understood that,” you know, you have all the [00:20:00] statistics, that in that period of time the cancer wasn’t likely to grow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
“And this is what we did and how we did it and how it changed our decision-making.” You know, that kind of a path would totally mitigate this thing I’m talking about, this ... So what a book coach’s job is at this stage is to say, “What’s gonna get this proposal rejected? And, you know, what’s, what, what are the agents likely to respond to?”
And this would be one way to mitigate the, you know, I won’t touch this with a 10-foot pole, they’re giving medical advice problem. Um, and it also solves the problem of- Even if that wasn’t their reaction, I feel like the next reaction they might have is, “But what kind of book is this? Is this, you know, um, how to, how to
Like, I was really interested in what you were saying about [00:21:00] you and your husband made decisions about your partnership about who would do what, who would take on what task. You tell a really great story about a Thanksgiving, sounds like right after diagnosis, where your husband was locked away doing research, and you were handling the food, and the family, and all the thing.
And, you know, a lot of people would be pissed about that. And, and you were like, “This is my, what I can do right now.” Like, that stuff to me was really interesting, and, um, you could talk about that all day long in a book, right? Mm. “This is what we did. This is why we did it. This is what it felt like.” Um, you know, w- you could do that s- there’s so many ways you could approach it in that way.
But again, it has to be the book you wanna write. So we, you can’t just respond to what I ... You know, it, like, if inside you’re feeling, “But we wanna tell people what to do,” you can. You just have to go into the pitch process knowing, “Okay, we’re gonna pitch [00:22:00] 30 agents, and 20 of them are gonna say, ‘Yeah, no. Can’t, can’t do it for that reason.’”
You know? Uh, which is, if you go in knowing that, that’s okay. So it’s, if that’s what you really wanna, wanna do, you should, you should embrace that. Um, like, is the idea of rejigging the whole thing to be one couple’s path through, you know, a year, uh, a, uh, a year of battling prostate cancer, is that ... Do you think, “Yeah, I can’t go back,” or do you think, “No, I, that’s something I could do”?
Brenna Humphries: Um, I think it’s something I could do. Of course, you know, my head’s going a million directions while you’re talking. Um, I, I think it’s very much about our story anyway. I, and I, I think neither one of us, again, says that we are doctors, and one thing that we wrestled with quite a bit is that we know that a lot of the techniques that worked for [00:23:00] us, you know, are already out of date.
So w- we’re not claiming to have this evergreen, you know, model template, “Do this.” It’s more about that sort of ... And, and, you know, maybe you could see it framed as more of a business book. Um, you know, you are the CEO of your, of your illness, and you, um, put together your team, and you make sure everybody on your team knows their responsibilities, and you, you know, here are the questions to ask, and here are the places to look, and here are the ways to evaluate whether this guru or this guru is, is right or wrong.
Um, I feel like we can offer those kinds of tools. Um, but I think ultimately it’s, our credibility is our story, that we went through it, and here are the things we saw. And, um- You know, ultimately that’s the kind of writer I am anyway. That’s, that is the kind of book that I write, is telling stories and setting the, the scene and the details.
I’m, I’m not ever gonna write a book that’s just gonna be like, you know, fact, fact, fact, fact. Yeah. So I guess, I don’t know if I answered your question.
Jennie Nash: Well, [00:24:00] that, what’s really interesting about that approach, I’m trying, I’m searching right now for, for a book that, um, I can’t remember the title. Uh, it, it’s a book- I
Brenna Humphries: wanna read that back pain book by the way.
My dad’s-
Jennie Nash: Oh, that back pain book? ... going through that right now. Yeah.
Brenna Humphries: Is
Jennie Nash: riveting. And what was weird for me, a little aside about me, um, my friend’s going through a terrible back pain thing and, and she said, “I read this book and, and, um, he, he mentions migraines.” So I’m a long-term sufferer of migraine, and she’s like- Mm-hmm
“I, you know, I’d love to talk to you about it.” And I say, “Yeah, I’m all over it.” And then the same week, a business mentor of mine mentioned the same book, and it was published in the ‘90s. And I was like, “Okay- Whoa ... I’m paying attention, universe.” Yes. Right? Yeah. And she mentioned- Yeah ... it from a business standpoint because it’s a book about basically questioning your own thoughts, right?
So- Oh, wow ... it’s fantastic. But- Okay ... the book I’m trying to find that I’m not c- turning up is, it was for [00:25:00] college, college kids, and it was- Be the CEO of your life, but that’s not coming up right, so it’s, it’s not that. But what’s interesting about taking approach, an approach like that for you and your husband, so from where I sit, all of a sudden when you say that, I get all, um, sparkly.
Sparkles? Be- sparkly. I’m like, ooh. Because you guys run a business together. We do. You’ve run a business for 14 years together. Yeah. You, you know how to have a business partnership. You know how to divide and conquer. You know what strengths and weaknesses. You know how to communicate with each other at a level that a lot of people don’t, and it plays into directly the strengths that you have.
And then when you think about marketing, going out with a book like that, with that sort of angle and that kind of stance, totally positions you as such subject matter experts, basically. Right? So-
Brenna Humphries: Interesting. [00:26:00] Yeah ...
Jennie Nash: to me, that starts, there starts being this alignment between who you are, what you bring to this, what you want to do, what you want to say, and how you’re gonna be in the world with the topic.
Because how you want to be in the world with the topic is you want to be speaking to, you know, caregiver groups and doctor groups and nursing groups, and all the people that touch, um, prostate cancer patients and their, and their partners at the beginning of the journey, and take them through this process that’s gonna help them do a better job at confronting- Mm
this thing. That’s a fantastic approach, and-
Brenna Humphries: Okay ...
Jennie Nash: one that then mitigates all the problems we’ve talked about, as long as you, you know, watch your language where it’s, it’s not like, “This is what you should do.” It’s... Or maybe it’s the this is what you should do could be more, um, mm, what’s the word I’m looking [00:27:00] for?
Not prescriptive, but more global. Like, you’re allowed to say something like, “You don’t have to do what the doctor says.” Like, as a global thing. Mm-hmm. That’s different from saying, “You don’t have to get this MRI,”
Brenna Humphries: right? Like-
Jennie Nash: Like, so if you- Yeah ... kinda take it up a notch, a bigger picture thing, and when you talk about it, you’re the CEO of, you know...
So, like, when I went through cancer, which feels just like a gazillion years ago, we actually saw this artifact not so long ago when we were packing up some books. We had this binder. I feel like it was before the internet. Is that even possible? Have I been alive that long? I don’t know. Uh, we’ve s- it didn’t feel like it was internet times, but we had this literal five-ring- Mm-hmm
or three-ring binder, and had tabs in it, and y- you know, we were stumbling our way through. [00:28:00] But if somebody had, at that moment, said, “Listen,” “you need to go get yourself three binders. You need to make these tabs. You need to f- you know, c- find somebody in your network who can do X. Find somebody who can do I.”
We had two little kids, so it’s like, “You need to, you know, get somebody to take care of those kids. You need to...” Like, the h- uh, it... I would’ve been like, “Oh, thank you.” Right?
Brenna Humphries: Okay, interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Jennie Nash: So, and
Brenna Humphries: then- Yeah, ‘cause you’re lost. I mean, that’s the thing. It’s just so scary. Y- I don’t care, you know, whether you think you’re gonna die from it or not, it’s still scary.
There’s something in your body that you don’t want there, you know?
Jennie Nash: Yeah.
Brenna Humphries: And so having somebody kind of take you by the hand and go, “Hey, you know, i- it’s gonna be okay. Here are the things you need to do, you know? And yeah, y- you’re right, don’t necessarily tell the doctor to do this process or this process, but here are the questions you should ask, and here’s- Yes
the type of relationship.” It is, like, about a little shift in the relationship with the doctor. It’s not, “Oh my God, Doc, tell [00:29:00] me what to do.” It’s, “Hey, Doctor, I... You know, here’s what I understand of, of so far. I got my report. I read my report. Here are my questions. You think I should do this procedure? Okay, got it.
Um, what would that mean in the long term for my sex life, for my anatomy, for my ability to keep doing- Yeah ... the things I love in my life?” You know, and then it’s a decision. It’s a trade-off. Are you willing to give up this thing for this thing, right? And-
Jennie Nash: So that... Yeah, that kind of a stance feels, to me, qualitatively different from what you have, and also actually more helpful.
If you’re gonna- Mm-hmm ... teach me, the reader- How to think about my relationship with the doctor. So what we’re actually talking about is slowing it way down, slowing it way down from what you have. Because-
Brenna Humphries: Okay ...
Jennie Nash: I could see you doing a whole chapter on, so you- you guys don’t tell your family, you decide not to tell your family for some period of time, and it was hard for me to decipher that [00:30:00] period of time, but it certainly included Thanksgiving with all the people at your house.
So-
Brenna Humphries: Yeah ...
Jennie Nash: just, you could have a whole chapter on should you tell people right away? You know, I wanted to do this, my husband wanted to do that, or we were totally in alignment, but what if you’re not? Or, um, you know, what if you have this type of relationship. You know, like, h- exactly your point, what to think about, about thinking about talk- telling your family, and doing it as a couple.
So helpful. And then, I mean, I even just the idea of if you don’t like your doctor, get another one.
Brenna Humphries: Yeah. Right? That is an option.
Jennie Nash: Right? Because oftentimes- Yeah ... when you’re in the midst of that sort of thing, you’re not thinking like that. So when I say slow it down, it, you know, you could see I was poking a little bit in your, or your pages.
You did a l- a little bit of that, um, telling, not showing. Mm. I wanted to see [00:31:00] you saying, “What are you doing? We need to schedule that surgery tomorrow. What do you mean you didn’t call the doctor?” Like, was there a fight? Was there a anger? Did you freak out? Did you, um, go to, you know, your girlfriends and say, “My husband’s making me insane”?
Or, or was that... You know, like slowing it down to, um- the, the things people are gonna actually experience. Does that- I like that and I- How does that land?
Brenna Humphries: It lands well, and I, you know, the, the word that you said, should, really hit me hard because what I kind of like in what you’re suggesting is that it’s not should you tell your family, it’s how do you decide when and whether to tell your family.
Yeah. And how you work that out as a couple, because in our particular case, I wanted to tell people. He was, “No. I don’t want to tell anyone until I know what our path is, ‘cause then I can answer questions and be certain.” And for me, it was very much like what you described, like, I wanna be able to talk to people [00:32:00] so that I can work this through myself.
But I think that’s the little bit of a male/female thing, or, you know, just how different people, um, respond in a situation like that, and neither one’s wrong, and neither one’s right. Right. But you have to navigate it as a couple or you’re gonna be further apart instead of, you know, our goal for this is by the end, you have your quality of life and you’re closer together for having gone through this, versus farther apart.
Jennie Nash: Well, and you, you even make a, a declaration that I think y- you got from somewhere else, but it is a little unclear, but the idea, like, this is a couples disease. And even just that, like, tell me why. And- Mm-hmm ... you know, it’s not only... Uh, ‘cause I was thinking, as a breast cancer survivor, I was thinking, well, so is that.
And I don’t know- Totally ... if you, if you got far enough in, in my book, but I, there’s a chapter about my sex life, um, and- I didn’t get
Brenna Humphries: there, but I [00:33:00] will read quickly.
Jennie Nash: Right? Uh, having sex for the first time after having a mastectomy. Um- Mm ... and why am I telling you that? Oh, so when I, when I heard that, I was like, well, I had so many questions that I felt like, again, if you slowed it down, it’s like, is, is the prostate cancer more so a couples disease than others?
If so, why? What’s, what’s your experience of that? What’s, what’s your, um, what do people say about that? Like, so interesting, so valuable, so helpful so that two people, and I think we have to assume a partner might, might not be a woman. Uh, but if you’re writing a book about couples, it’s, there’s part- there’s partnership.
Brenna Humphries: But- No, I think we include that either way. Yeah, it’s male, female, and it can also be transgender. If you have a prostate- Yeah ... you know you’re affected by this, and your partner or whoever you’re with. Yeah.
Jennie Nash: But so what’s interesting is when you start thinking about this, like, [00:34:00] what actually do we want to do?
What actually is this book? What is our purpose? What is our point? All these questions. Mm-hmm. Then you start to play around a lot with structure. And- Yeah ... um, I got a little tied up in knots around your structure, and there were quite a few times in the first few chapters where you said- You sort of introduced a topic and then said, “We’re gonna get to that later.”
There was a sense of like not being... Like, a reader wants to have somebody take their hand and walk them through, whatever it is. Whatever it is you’re talking about teaching, you know. So you, uh, I felt like you, there was not this path through or this narrative drive through, and when I’m talking to you now, it feels like there totally could be.
Like, I can think of so many different structural ways you could approach, approach the material, you know? So it could be [00:35:00] 12 key decisions to make with your partner.
Brenna Humphries: Oh.
Jennie Nash: Yeah, yeah. Or it could be the first, um, I don’t know. How many hours are there in a week? Uh, s- X number of hours, um, you know- Mm-hmm ... uh, what to do in that period of time.
Or it could be, um, what does it look like to be an advocate for yourself? Here are 10 skills. Like there’s... I mean, I’m just-
Brenna Humphries: Yeah ...
Jennie Nash: spitballing, but there’s a lot of ways if you’re clear about, okay, this is a book about- How to ask better questions, how to be an advocate for your own self, how we did that. Um, there’s so many ways you could do that.
A- and again, how does that land with you?
Brenna Humphries: Well, what I thought of right away was, um, there was a book a while ago that I really loved the format of, um, I think it might have been a financial book n- or it might have been a, a [00:36:00] relationship book, but it was basically, here are eight date nights you need to have.
And, like, each one- Yes ... had a topic, and it had give you some questions, and, like, as a couple, you worked those out, and by the end of it, you had kind of hit all the major bases that people run into in their relationship. And I was actually thinking of modeling that a while back and creating, um, something like that for playing mixed doubles as partners.
‘Cause I thought- Amazing ... oh, that’s really cool. You know, you should think about, like, when you’re playing mixed doubles, um, ‘cause a lot of people head for divorce when they play mixed doubles. Like, it’s a thing. People will not do it. But, um, you know, you need to talk about why are we playing? Do we wanna win the championship, or do we just wanna have fun and get healthy?
And, like, why are the reason- what are the reasons we do that? What’s our approach? How are we gonna handle strategy, and what do we do if we’re losing? Or, you know, all those kinds of things. But I think that could apply really well here too. Here are the different... You know, just make this a fun process. I, I mentioned at one point we have this little ritual, like, we go to IHOP after we have a terrible day.
Jennie Nash: Okay. I love that story.
Brenna Humphries: That [00:37:00]
Jennie Nash: was so great. It’s gonna be IHOP. And it, it reminded me of a, a friend and client of mine whose, whose husband had a, um, has a degenerative eye issue, and they often have to go to these appointments where they... Well, you know where I live. They have to drive down to LA, and it’s, like, a whole day, and they have to get up early, and they have the same thing.
They go to this taco place. And so even just taking that idea, I saw you light up when you talked about, like, eight date nights. Because now what you’re talking about is how to come together at a difficult time- Mm-hmm ... rituals that would help You know, you’re, you’re helping people design a ritual for themselves that would help.
So I could see a book that’s like, why you need this structure, what’s gonna happen over this structure. Okay, now here’s the eight, the eight dates to have. And maybe somebody has those in the first four days. Or maybe they, you know, depending on their situation, or [00:38:00] maybe they, um... But something like that allows you to be the authority of what you’re presenting rather than this sort of quasi-medical authority.
And where your husband did something specific research-wise, maybe somebody, maybe there’s two people and no- neither of them is a researcher, or n- neither of them likes to do this, but they have a friend who does. You know- Mm-hmm ... can they bring that person in? Like, what is the role of research in approaching this disease, in becoming an advocate for your own self?
Um, what, maybe it’s even what’s your relationship to research? Do you like it? Do you not like it? Are you good at it? Um, are you, you know, because what if you’re saying one of the dates is decide who’s gonna do the research, you’re not now, you’re not confronting the [00:39:00] medical establishment. You’re not, you know, it’s just somebody’s gotta understand the language that you’re now speaking.
How are you gonna do that?
Brenna Humphries: Yeah. I, I definitely could see that. I mean, I also don’t wanna veer into the lane of we’re a couples therapist, and I’m quite aware that, you know, all couplers, all couples are different, and people are gonna have a lot of different feelings about their partner going through this.
Um, and, you know, they may not always have a supportive partner. They might, you know, there’s all kinds of situations. Um, so I like that approach, but I definitely wanna make sure too that it is getting to the, the heart. And, and maybe it’s more like a, you know, as a business, we have business meetings. We have, during the life cycle of a project, there’s the kickoff meeting, and then there’s the postmortem at the end where you go, “How’d we do?”
And then there’s status meetings along the way. Um, maybe that. I, I don’t know. I don’t want it to become a project management book either. You see my, my confusion. But I sh- definitely hear the heart of what you’re saying, which is [00:40:00] it needs to be a little bit less prescriptive In terms of the medical procedures, but still opening people’s eyes to you have a choice.
You have certain questions you need to ask, and you do need to work together on this, and you do need to think of it like a team, and you’re bringing in experts, subject matter experts who can help in the areas you, that you don’t have- Yeah ... depending on who you are- Well- ... what your strengths ...
Jennie Nash: and what’s great about this is if you adopt this type of a structure that’s, that’s more, we’re offering a framework for how to be a team through this difficult process.
That’s not being a medical advisor, and it’s not being a therapist. It’s saying, “We’re two people that work together and have a shared understanding of how to approach something like this, and this is what we did.” But the, the reason that I quite like that is takes away all the dangerous parts that, that I saw on the [00:41:00] page.
I think it makes your tone, um, it, it clarifies y- where you’re coming from. You know, not like, “Do this, do that, you must...” You know, i- it’s more, “Here’s a way to think about it. Here’s a way to approach it. Here’s, here’s what we did. Here’s how it might work. Here’s what some folks we talked to did, how they d- handled it differently,” or, “Here’s how you might approach this if you don’t have a supportive partner.”
That maybe that is a time to bring in a therapist. You know, it’s, it’s, that tone is much more, um, your authority’s coming from your lived experience, I guess.
Outro: Yeah. Okay.
Jennie Nash: But the- Mm-hmm ... the reason that I c- I quite like this for you all is because from a marketing perspective, you were talking about the possibility of partnerships, um, you know, retreats, having, uh, things, inviting people in to go through this work together.
The way [00:42:00] that I always like to talk to nonfiction auf- authors is to think about how this book is gonna live in the world. And if you had something like eight dates, uh, or eight conversations, or eight def- decisions, or whatever that structure might be, you could see how that would lend itself so beautifully to, “Here’s a three-day weekend for the newly diagnosed.”
You know, if you’ve, if you’ve been diagnosed, um, in the last X months or, you know, maybe I’m gonna talk about where you meet that, where you meet that reader in terms of their timeline. But you could run virtual events. You could run... You could have a program that is on demand. Um, there’s a woman in my business mastermind.
Well, she isn’t there anymore, but she ran, um, she had a very successful business. Ah, she had such a great name. It was called, um- Don’t text your [00:43:00] ex. It was so great,
Brenna Humphries: right? That is good advice for anyone.
Jennie Nash: And it was, um, how to get over a breakup in three months. So she had this guarantee that you can get over a breakup in three months, and she had this process that she used.
I, I never quite understood what it was. I wish I had actually gone and taken it, ‘cause I was always so curious. What, what are you doing that you could guarantee that? But, but she’d done it so many times with so many people that she could guarantee that. I think it was get over your ex in three months or your money back.
But she had a always on demand, um, you know, thing, because her ideal client, her ideal reader needs something right now, right? They need something tonight.
Brenna Humphries: Yes. Well, that, that
Jennie Nash: relays. Right?
Brenna Humphries: And
Jennie Nash: there’s also, if you think about, like, um, somebody else in my business mastermind had a thing where it was get your toddler to sleep tonight.
Oh, wow. Because it’s like [00:44:00] somebody needs that right now. Mm-hmm. They don’t need that three weeks from now. So from a, from a business ecosystem standpoint, if you had a book like that, that would lend itself to a training, there could be an on-demand training. You could run retreats. You could do in-person things.
You could go and teach others in the medical profession how to use this book. You know, there’s so many ways that you could be then in the, living with this in the world. Does, does that resonate?
Brenna Humphries: It does, yeah. And, and you touch on something that I think I mentioned towards the end of the, um, not the proposal, but in your worksheet, which is, I mean, yes, it’s a couples disease for certain very specific reasons.
It does deal very much with intimacy. Um, but there’s no reason that this particular process could not be applied to breast cancer, Alzheimer’s, diabetes, other issues that couples have to walk through together. There’s always an element of, [00:45:00] “I can’t, you know, really understand what’s going through, what’s going on with you as the, the patient,” right?
There’s certain things that you’re feeling and experiencing that I can be empathetic about, but I can’t really, you know, go there with you. Yeah. And I think with a lot of diseases, that is true. And so I could see it expanding into more of, again, a, a process you can follow with regard to your relationship, and also with regard to getting through the medical system.
‘Cause again, I, I don’t think it’s the doctors, but I do think we have a difficult system in place here with insurance and, you know, the time I spent on the phone calling doctor’s offices and getting authorizations and all that stuff. It really is like a business in that sense too. So I think that’s true of any, any illness, and so it could be a little bigger- Mm-hmm
than just prostate cancer in that way.
Jennie Nash: Yeah. Um, and if you position it as- Well, again, coming from your lived experience of we run a [00:46:00] business- Mm-hmm ... this is CEO of your disease, the CEO of your diagnosis, CEO of your, you know, medical journey, and we’re uniquely qualified to teach this because we run a business together.
We, we already knew how to do this, and we leapt into action quickly, and that is what saved us and, you know, helped us move through this process so well, and we wanna share our, our process, our methodology, how we, how we did that with you. That’s, I think, way more sellable for you in the marketplace. Um, so If you are, after we’re having this conversation, do you feel like you want to shake things up in the proposal?
Um, oh,
Brenna Humphries: yeah
Jennie Nash: Because there’s two pathways forward. It’d be like, well, we can tweak a few things and clean it up, and then it’s ready to go, or it’s, yeah, I think we gotta strip it back to the studs [00:47:00] and build it up again. Like, what, what are you feeling? Which path are you feeling?
Brenna Humphries: Well, I mean, the proposal itself, um, I am completely fine with completely stripping.
Um, and the chapters as well, but I do feel like there’s a lot in the chapters, in the actual writing, that I am quite fond of and would like to keep in terms of telling our story. Um, but I guess I might put that back on you in terms of if we were to restructure this to be a little bit more like, “Hey, cancer sucks.
How about you start a business instead? Pick a name, you know, get your LLC, get... And, and help walk people through how you build a business,” and, um, but applying that to dealing with a cancer diagnosis and a relationship. Um, how... In other words, how much of our personal story would you see remaining in something like that?
And like, how [00:48:00] could you envision something like that being still a personal story and helpful to people who are terrified, but also creating this process? Is that-
Jennie Nash: Well, you get to decide. Um-
Brenna Humphries: Yeah ...
Jennie Nash: there, you could do it in any number of ways. Um, I mean, it sounds like it’s very important to you to keep it, so, um, that would be the answer, right?
It’s not, it’s not what I think- Mm-hmm ... it would be, we, we wanna share that. We think it’s important. Um, you could write a book without it easily. Could be very CEO kind of vibe, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, workbook-y, you know. Um, if you decide that you want to make your story a part of it, then you have to, then the next decision is, okay, how?
Um, i- I thought when I first started reading your book, there was a moment, um, you were talking about we, and then there [00:49:00] was a moment when you s- used the I, and I realized that you’re the narrati- you’re the narrator. And before that, I thought, “Oh, are they gonna do a, a he said, she said, or a, you know, his and hers, or my, my view, y- you know, their view?”
Um, I thought that’s what you were gonna do, um, a- and then you didn’t, so you could do that. Um, you could remain where you’re the narrator and telling, um- You know, reporting on the story basically. Um, I agree that there’s parts of your chapters that are, that are lovely. Some of ... When you write scenes, you’re really good, when you actually write a scene, um, because you’re putting us in it, we’re there, uh, it’s present moment, you’re showing us what you’re thinking and feeling and making, how you’re making meaning of things.
Um, but when you’re just telling us what happened, not so much. Um, [00:50:00] that wasn’t so engaging. So I would definitely go through and keep the, the parts that you love are probably the parts that are effective, right? So, um, I don’t think you have to ax it. But it ... So we’re talking about two things. We’re talking about figuring out a, the larger overall structure that’s gonna serve you and, and allow you to be the authority over this story and, and have it be commercially viable.
And then we’re talking about- W- how each chapter’s gonna deliver on that. Um, and if it’s, if you’re gonna do something like eight dates or eight decisions or eight questions, you would have a kind of a template for how each chapter would be. It’s gonna be, well, we’re gonna tell our story and what we did.
We’re gonna talk about why this is one of the eight things. We’re gonna, um, talk about what, you know, has to happen, uh, w- in this context of this question or decision or [00:51:00] date. Um, and it’s always gonna end with a series of questions. So, you know, your story would be in the mix. Um, so the, that’s the, that would be the two structural decisions.
How’s the big thing gonna work, and then how is each chapter gonna work within it to, to serve you? Um, and something I do wanna say is even though this is big revision work, when you, when I look at your proposal, your audience analysis is great. Your comp titles are perfect. They’re just, they’re just confused because you’re confused about the book you’re writing.
But those aren’t gonna change. Mm-hmm. The, how you talk about them will change a little bit. Um, you know, your, your bios are largely intact. I think you could use that section better. Um, I’m just trying to think through the whole, the whole thing. Um, you know, so in some ways it’s, it’s not wholesale scrapping of it at all.
[00:52:00] It’s, okay, we gotta lay a stronger foundation.
Brenna Humphries: Yeah. That makes sense. Ah, that’s a lot of decisions.
Jennie Nash: It is. But it’s- But guess- But
Brenna Humphries: it’s good. I mean, I’m excited ...
Jennie Nash: guess what I know about you and your husband? You’re good at making decisions together.
Brenna Humphries: We’ve made a few. Yeah. No, I’m, I’m lucky.
Jennie Nash: Um- Yeah ... so I wanna make sure that I leave you with clarity about what you’re, what the big decisions are.
Do you wanna reflect back to me what, what you think you’re gonna be doing?
Brenna Humphries: Yeah. Well, I, I think, um, making sure that I keep going back to what the, you know, goal of the writing the book is, but maybe finding a way to, um, speak from a place of personal ... What did you say? Personal authority? Um, lived experience.
Yeah, your lived experience. Authority through lived experience. Yeah. So I know what we’ve done. [00:53:00] I know what we know. I know what we can speak to with authority. Um, I guess maybe, well-
Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of different ways to change someone’s mind about an approach, and, and asking questions can be a very strong approach versus being prescriptive. So I think that that’s, that’s a really interesting way to go about it, is say, “Here are some questions, and here’s a process.
Um, and maybe we ... I’ll have to push on it, whether it’s, you know, how you form a business,” but I think there are a lot of elements that work in terms of choosing your team and making sure that you’re, you know ... And I think things are less scary when you have a process to follow, so creating something like that would be good.
Um, but yeah, I guess I’m not quite seeing the, the chapter format yet in my mind. Um, but I think I hear what you’re saying in terms of what needs to change, yeah.
Jennie Nash: Yeah. And you can noodle on that. [00:54:00] Um, you know, maybe, maybe it is that, that date structure or that decision structure, or maybe it’s by time. You know, maybe it’s the first 24 hours, or maybe it’s the- Mm
um, you know. And one, one thing that I would suggest to, like be really open and curious about what it could look like, and fish around for a structure. The thing that’s great about structure is you can steal it, so fish around for a structure that you like. You know, you mentioned that this book about, um, relationships that you like.
It doesn’t have to be in your realm. This isn’t a comp title. Um, one book that has come to my mind while I’ve been thinking about yours is, um ... Are you familiar with the work of Emily Nagoski? Um-
Brenna Humphries: I’m sorry. You cut out just a little bit there. What’s the name?
Jennie Nash: Oh, Emily Nagoski.
Brenna Humphries: Oh, Emily Nagoski. No.
Jennie Nash: So she’s a sex researcher and, um, or therapist, a sex therapist, [00:55:00] and she’s written several books.
The first one’s called Come Again, but the second one is called Come Together: The Science and Art of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections, and it’s, um, a beautiful book about how to talk to your partner about sex as you age.
Brenna Humphries: Wow.
Jennie Nash: And, um, just the way she does it, the way she approaches that book, you know, look at the table of contents of a book like that.
Um, she’s coming at it, she’s got a PhD, she’s coming from a therapy standpoint, so she’s got a different lived experience that she gets to share. Yeah. But, um, you know, look for books that, that are, that have a structure that gets at what you’re trying to do, which is teach how to be a, in partnership through a hard medical process.
Brenna Humphries: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, it’s ... You say that and I [00:56:00] go, “Oh, but I’m not a therapist. I’m not, you know, qualified in that way,” but, um, I think there’s a way around that, yeah, to talk again about the process versus the, the knowledge. Um, but I will, yeah. We, there are several books that we looked at in considering our structure, and we were looking at Outlive by Peter Attia.
We were looking at, um- Yep ... Sanjay Gupta’s book, and- Yep ... the Let Them theory, which all have their own controversies at this point. But in terms- Right ... of structure, you know, um, there was good storytelling in a lot of those, a lot of the personal reasons for why they’re writing it, but then also the, the actual advice, so, um.
Jennie Nash: Right. Right. Um, yeah. I think, um, just backing away from you can’t give people medical advice, um, and, and the through line of where do we wanna take them, how do we wanna take them, you guys have so much to offer, and it’s an exciting opportunity. And if you look at the comp titles, there’s such a opportunity to do [00:57:00] something great here, and I would really hold on, this will be my final thought- Mm-hmm
to it’s unusual to have a couple that works together in the particular way that you all do in a partnership, in a creative business. Um, there’s things that you know and do that you probably don’t know that you know and do that would really help other people that don’t work with their spouse or that haven’t tackled, uh
You know, you said, “Oh, I don’t know if I want to write a project management book.” I heard you s- sort of say that, but, um, you know, there’s a lot of people that have no idea how to begin to approach something like this together. You know, you hear ... We just did a big, um, house renovation, and, you know, people say all the time, “Oh, people get divorced over that.”
You know, that’s the level most people know how to deal with, is wh- you know, how are we choosing paint color. You’re talking about something much more charged- Mm ... emotionally. So, you know, you’ve got something really big [00:58:00] to share, and the heart to share it, and it’s very cool, and I can’t wait to see what you do next.
Brenna Humphries: Thank you. This is so helpful. I can’t even tell you. I’m very grateful. Thank you for this.
Jennie Nash: Well, thank you for being in the hot seat- And for our listeners, thanks for listening. Now let’s get back to work.
Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:59:00] work.
