Hot Seat Coaching: From Concept to Page: The Journey of a Thriller with Andrew Parrella

Jennie Nash returns to a #amwriting hot seat with novelist Andrew Parrella. Building on prior guidance from ThrillerFest’s Samantha Skal, they refine Andrew’s thriller outline—especially antagonist Seward’s motivation, escalating twists, and clue/red-herring sophistication—while acknowledging outline fatigue and treating it as a living document updated alongside drafted scenes.

Andrew adds a new opening murder to raise the early body count without revealing the killer, links the victim to Abby, and explores Seward’s conflicted “strategy” to preserve an old-world hierarchy that targets women’s and vampires’ agency. They also discuss Quince as a privileged, unreliable brother and the need to define Mina’s telepathic vampire “magic” so her influence preserves Abby’s agency and makes Mina’s end offer a harder choice. They plan to review drafted chapters next.

Catch Up on Andrew’s Hot Seat Coaching Journey

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hey, it’s Jennie, and I want to say thank you to everyone who’s been reaching out to inquire about Author Accelerator’s Book Coach Certification Program and the free training that I’m doing on June 15th. One of the things I’ve been hearing again and again is this feeling that helping writers often comes very naturally to certain people, sometimes long before they even think of it as professional work.

They’re the ones everybody turns to when they’re stuck. They love talking about books and structure and ideas and the creative process. They know how to listen carefully and ask thoughtful questions. And whether or not they even know it, they’re often looking for a way to build work around those strengths, and they want to find something meaningful and sustainable.

And that’s really what our certification program is designed to support. If you want to learn more and see if your background might be a good fit for this work, I’m hosting a free live webinar on June 15th, where I’ll walk through what book coaches actually do and how people begin to build a career around it.

You can register at [00:01:00] bookcoaches.com/webinar1. That’s the number one. bookcoaches.com/webinar1. Okay, now on to the episode.

Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time, and today I’m back with Andrew Perella, who’s become a fan favorite.

Andrew, did you know that?

Andrew: I, I was not aware.

Jennie: Everybody is hanging on their edge of their seat to see- ... what’s gonna come next with your novel. So where we left you the last time was we had the great good fortune of speaking with Sam Skoll- Mm-hmm ... uh, executive director of [00:02:00] ThrillerFest, thriller coach, and, um, she, she gave you some directives, and how did you feel coming away from that and, and then doing that work?

Andrew: Oh, I mean, it was great to, to get her insights and thoughts about that, and she w- um, you know, spelling out some of the things that the thriller audience expects from a thriller book, like the three twists, the, the, the mid-book twist, the, the, the end of the book twist, and then the final tw- And like, so I’ve been, I’ve been thinking a lot about that, and it was really fun brainstorming with her about what she was seeing in, in my outline and how, how things could, uh, could be adjusted to, to kind of f- meet some of those, some of those, uh, thriller reader expectations.

Um-

Jennie: And a lot of that hinged on getting your antagonist’s motivation pinned down, which, which you did some great work on. So before we get into it, are you sick of this yet? Like- Because it’s, it’s interesting, right? Like, you’re such a [00:03:00] good, you’re so coachable that you’re sort of just doing what we say here.

But this has been a lot of time on the outline of a novel. Are you, are you like, “I just want to write already”? Like, how are you feeling about that?

Andrew: Um, uh, full disclosure, I did start doing a little bit of writing. I- And just like- I would imagine that

Jennie: you wouldn’t.

Andrew: Started playing around with a few of those open, uh, uh, with a couple of the opening scenes.

Um, but like I kept going back to the outline to say, “Well, okay, so what am I doing next?” And like, and, and like so to a certain extent, yes, I am a little bit tired. If, if I’m be- if to be imp- in all honesty, I’m a little tired of, of the outline, but it is so valuable and like I’m appreciating n- now the value of it in very real terms as I start trying to flesh out what these scenes are going to look like and what is happening in these scenes.

I go back to here and it’s like, “Okay, these are the things, these are the things that are happening, these are the emotions that are happening, these are the [00:04:00] things my, my characters are, are thinking and feeling, uh, in these scenes,” so I need to make sure that is evident on the page. Um, and so it’s, it’s been, it’s been an invaluable, uh, an invaluable re- resource in that regard.

Jennie: Well, the reason I asked is because I find myself a little tired of it, and so I just wanted to talk about that- ... because, well, it’s interesting, right? Because writing a book takes so long, and getting it right takes so long. And for anybody who’s paying attention, so that’s you the writer, that’s me the person guiding you, there is that sense that starts to come in like, “Haven’t we been here before?”

Or, “Do we have to?” Or, “Couldn’t we just carry on?” You know, there is that, that emotion, and I think it’s a valid and real emotion, which is why I wanted to bring it up because- Mm-hmm ... the question is why bother? Right? Like why bother? Could we, [00:05:00] could we just solve all the problems in the manuscript? Um- I happen to think that’s a really inefficient way to go.

Um, so I don’t know. Uh, but I did want to be real about that because there, there are still some things that I would tighten down. And, you know, so to think of the outline as a living, breathing document in just the way that you described, it’s like I’m gonna write- Mm-hmm ... I’m gonna go back to it, I’m gonna write, I’m gonna go back to it.

It’s gonna guide me, and I’m, if I’m going to... It can be the keeper of the changes. So-

Andrew: Right ...

Jennie: let’s say that we decide today that you’re gonna do something different in a first scene that you have in fact already written. It’s like, okay, next time you go touch that scene, you’ll do what’s in this new outline.

So it be- that’s what we mean by living. Does that make sense?

Andrew: Yes. No, I think that makes absolute sense. Um, and I can, I can f- you know, as I started tinkering with some of the scenes, I [00:06:00] was like, “Oh, this is changing kind of the intent of this scene. This is, this is changing how this is going to set up the next scene,” and I’m, I, I’m realizing I need to now go back to the outline and make some adjustments t- ‘cause I like some of the changes that are happening when I started, um, blowing up the scenes a little bit, expanding the scenes a little bit.

Um, so it’s, it’s gonna be fun to work on that.

Jennie: And I think this also speaks to the reality that there’s kind of never a moment when it’s just, “This is perfect,” and you are now released from- What? Right? It’s

Andrew: like- You’re, you’re telling me this now? I

Jennie: know, right? Um, like, and that was when I was, when I was thinking, like, gosh, I bet Andrew’s just like, “When is she gonna tell me I can stop doing this?”

But this is the work, right? Right. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I just wanted to talk about that. Um, okay, so this work that you did on the outline to pin down primarily Seward, the, the antagonist, um, motivation [00:07:00] and some of the mystery part, the clue, the twisty part- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... um, so you’re liking that stuff it sounds like.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. It, um, adding some of those elements to the, to the, to the outline have made Seward a more p- a more present character for me, which is, which is really nice. I still feel like I’m tinkering with some of the clues, and like, and some, what’s gonna be a clue and what’s gonna be a red herring, and what’s, and what’s real and what’s not.

And so that is still, um, I feel like I’m still shaping. But it was good to get some of that stuff on the page and see what works, see what sticks, uh, and see what fizzles.

Jennie: Um, wow, that’s a great phrase. What works, what sticks, what fizzles. So a couple sort of global feedback, I felt the same, that the clues felt a, still a little predictable.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: A little, um, you know, the sense of Abby trying to piece it together by [00:08:00] different clues each time, or deeper, a deeper understanding of what’s happening, or her revelation around the clues does feel like you could deepen that, for sure.

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Um, so I saw that, and then the other thing I saw was I wanted to reflect back to you that I feel like what you’ve developed with Seward, he’s such a good villain.

Um, and I think it’d be easy to think of him Um, sort of generically bad. Like he doesn’t like women, he doesn’t... Like, he’s tr- he’s vindictive to, to his old, um, what was the relationship, I guess? Mentor. His old mentor, yeah. Right? You know, so he’s, he’s that, he’s... I’m just looking at my notes here. He’s, he’s got all these things that he is, and it, it would be [00:09:00] easy to think, “Well, here he is acting badly against these people.

Here he’s acting badly against these people.” But he has a worldview, and you shared with, this with me in the very beginning iteration of him, that- Mm-hmm ... he kind of believes that these hierarchies or structures of people or creatures who are better than or less than, that are, these are necessary, right?

To, to preserve or control the culture or civilization. Like, he’s got that overarching worldview that he really believes is true, right?

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Absolutely, yeah.

Jennie: So I would just suggest that when you’re, when you’re developing him and he’s in this scene, that it’s not like here’s another murder, and here’s another murder, and here’s another murder.

It’s, it’s- Yeah ... this is all for this particular end [00:10:00] that he’s passionate about. And further, Abby, um, represents c- all of these things kind of come together, all of these threads that he’s, believes come together in her, right? She’s not just the next- victim. She’s like the embodiment of what he hates, right?

Andrew: Yeah, and I think, I think he’s conflicted about that too. Because I think on some level, like he is fond of her, you know? He is an avuncular figure to him, uh, to her, and so like, and he’s known her ent- her entire life, and so I think there’s still... He, yeah, I think he’s a little conflicted like that, so like to ensure that that Seward doesn’t turn into like this mustache-twirling, um, you know-

Jennie: Right

Andrew: two-dimensional character, like I, like I want to inject that, that conflict, but also really need to like flesh out that worldview of his that defines so much about him. Um, [00:11:00] he doesn’t wanna kill people just to kill people. There is, there is a, there is a strategy in place for the old world order that he’s trying to preserve.

Jennie: Yeah, so that, you just said that better, way better than I did. That’s what I feel like is missing- Okay ... that you wanna make sure- Yeah ... to pin, pin down, that he- Mm-hmm ... yeah, he has this strategy and, and these people are necessary collateral damage, you know, they, they have to die. And this thing that you just said about his con- being conflicted over, it’s not really his niece, but it’s as close to that as you could get.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Jennie: Where in the story does it... Because he’s trying to help her at some s- stages. Well, she comes to him for help, I guess. And- She does ... and then at the end, of course, he entraps her in a terrible and frightening way. But- Mm-hmm ... where along the way does [00:12:00] he sort of turn-

Andrew: Yeah ...

Jennie: to think, “Okay, she’s actually my problem”?

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Where does that happen?

Andrew: And I think- I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know if there’s a single turning point, but I think, like, with each murder, he’s trying to scare her away. He’s trying to scare her back to, you know, her father’s house and everything that she has- To safety ... To safety, yeah. And with each murder, she, instead of taking that path, she continues on the, on the path she wants to go on.

And so, and so he plans the next murder to, you know, to advance his own scheme, but again, to try and steer her back and, and it keeps missing that second part. Um, he keeps failing to steer her away from her, where she wants to go. And I think, so he gets increasingly frustrated and frustrated with that. Um, and I think it finally kind of [00:13:00] comes out at the end, but, like, maybe, maybe we need, maybe there needs to be...

Maybe we need to see more of that earlier?

Jennie: Well, I think- Maybe we need- ... what you’re describing is actually really cool because it’s almost like they’ve... What’s the phrase? Uh, the, the wits, they’re, they’re like... What’s that phrase I’m looking for? They’re like, um, pitting each other against, uh, they’ve pitted themselves against each other with their, their wit and- Mm-hmm

and he thinks that she’s just a girl, she needs to stand down- Right ... and then she proves herself again and again to be clever and smart and strategic in putting the pieces together. So it’s almost like a, not cat and mouse, but, uh, he keeps underestimating her. She keeps rising above. Yeah. He keeps underestimating.

She keeps rising above until- Yeah ... the scene where-

Andrew: Yep ...

Jennie: even when she’s trapped by him, that still occurs. She outwits him.

Andrew: [00:14:00] Mm-hmm.

Jennie: In that, um, prison or cell scene at the asylum. And I’m sure at that moment... Well, at that moment, then he’s gone to, to do his, his, another, uh, deed here, but- Mm-hmm He probably thinks, “Well, I’ve got, I’ve got her now.”

Not, not just locked up physically, but like, “I’ve got her in her place,” basically. Yeah. Right?

Andrew: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I think there may be a threat of, of further violence against her while she’s locked up. Like, maybe getting locked up is only temporary until he gets back and finishes his plan, and then he’ll take care of her then or something like that.

And so yeah, I, um... That’s, that’s... Yeah, that’s really her, her dark, her dark moment of reflection there, yeah.

Jennie: And I could see him kind of lecturing her. Uh, you know, like, [00:15:00] “You... I tried to help you. You went too far,” that sort of thing, you know? Like, “I’m not- Right. Yeah, exactly ... I’m not a terrible person. You just- Right

got in my way.”

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Jennie: But yeah, I think if you, if you think of this outline as a braid, and those two-

Andrew: Mm-hmm ...

Jennie: are, are to- twisting around each other with the increased escalation, s- a- and, and I guess the bigger, the biggest point I’m trying to make is with the clues of the mystery and the murders that he’s committing, there’s, there’s a more of a sense that they’re about the same thing, and that she is the ultimate, um, roadblock to him.

Andrew: Yes.

Jennie: I think will really help that.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Jennie: It becomes a really personal story for the two of them.

Andrew: Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah, yeah, [00:16:00] yeah.

Jennie: Right? It’s what she wants for herself, which is agency.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: First it’s independence, then it’s agency, is precisely the thing that he thinks is dangerous.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Women shouldn’t have agency. Right. Vampires shouldn’t have agency.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: Right? Yeah. Uh, is there anything else that shouldn’t have agency? I’m trying to think, like, uh-

Andrew: Tho- those are, those are the two big groups that are, that, that are, that are, um, that are being represented in, in this, in this story anyway.

But yeah, I think that’s ex- that’s ex- that’s exactly right. Um.

Jennie: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah So I, um, I mean, I think you really are, are close to having this all pinned down and locked down. And, um, the thing to do is exactly what you’re doing, which is, which is right forward knowing these as you encounter them, you know, what...

[00:17:00] That’s what the outline does, is like look at it and say, “What is the point of this scene?” Right? Mm-hmm. What is it trying to do? Right. Where does it sit? Where does it come from? Where does it go to? How are those locked together to, to move that forward?

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: Um, so I wanna look at a couple of the notes that I wrote.

Sure. So you ca- came up with a whole new opening, which is, which is so interesting. So, so now before the book opened on the, um, funeral- Mm-hmm ... and now that’s scene- Three, or maybe it was she sneaks out of scene one actually before. But now you’ve introduced this new scene where we see the antagonist doing evil deeds in second one.

So that’s a cool opening.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: How are you liking that?

Andrew: I, uh, I’m, I’m liking that. And, and, um, and [00:18:00] Sam raised that issue, uh, in our last session that the body count wasn’t high enough, uh Right ... that the first, the first body happens far too late. There needs to be something earlier. And I think it’s also kind of, it’s, it’s become a, a, kind of a, a classic trope in the genre as well is, like, that opening scene is, okay, we see the first victim, we see the first victim fall.

So I, I, I th- you know, I sketched something out here. I sketched an idea out here. I think it still needs some, uh, some polish clearly, but I like where, where it started, and I need to kind of figure out more about it. But I, I like having that, that opening scene. We, we don’t s- I think we see the, the, the, the scene maybe through the eyes of the victim, so this wouldn’t be through, through, uh, Brianna’s eyes.

This would be through the eyes of the victim or, or, or some near third person, uh, viewing. Um, and, like, but we wouldn’t see exactly [00:19:00] who the murderer is. Um, that’s not something, um, I th- I, I, I, I intended to give away in this opening scene anyway.

Jennie: Got it. Yeah. Well, I think your first victim is perfect. She represents something-

Andrew: Yeah

Jennie: which, which is like what we’re talking about. Right. He’s not just killing people. He’s-

Andrew: Right ...

Jennie: has very specific things he’s doing here, so- Mm-hmm ... that’s awesome. And- Yeah ... the ... Can you tell me, um- Okay, so there was a question about, uh, I was asking about Van Helsing’s died, and I was saying, like, “Is this the day he dies?

Is this the next day ‘cause there’s a funeral in scene three?” So like that timing issue, so many times novelists have this question, like where to start, and even when you know, “Well, I’m gonna start with this murder,” [00:20:00] like exactly where to start, where exactly which 24 hours is this- Mm-hmm ... you know, to be really specific about it- Yeah

because he’s been waiting for this-

Andrew: He has ...

Jennie: death- Yeah ... a long time, right?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Jennie: And the fact- Yeah ... that he’s taking action so quickly is part of what’s kind of cool, right?

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think he’s been, he’s been, he’s been waiting for... Uh, and I, and, and I s- I still need to figure out w- in what way Van Helsing was an obstacle for him that only his death could remove.

But I think, like, once he’s, once he’s dead, okay, Seward can start putting his plan into motion. Um, although as we find out, there are still a number of quirks in his plan that didn’t quite get worked out in the, and he’s still kind of fumbling at some points. But, um, I think, uh, yeah, he was waiting for that.

And I think also, again, t- because, like, I don’t want [00:21:00] him to be a two-dimensional character, I think there was some, like, sort of respect he was waiting for, for Van Helsing to die because he didn’t want to uh, uh, something. He didn’t want to s- he didn’t, he didn’t, you know, he did, there was some vestige of respect and I think, um, in that, in the opening, in the, in the funeral scene now I have him kind of unburden on, uh, Brianna some of his feelings about, about Van Helsing and some of his regrets about their f- their feud.

Um, but I think yes. Yeah. Now the-

Jennie: Cool, and I think that in that could be the answer also to why is he walking around with this Van Helsing monogrammed watch-

Andrew: Right ...

Jennie: in these days after. You know, if he had... It sort of mirrors the respect he has for, for Abby. Like sh- Mm-hmm ... like this sort of love hate or respect but you have to go.

You know, like- Right. Yeah ... uh, [00:22:00] which is cool. Um- Yeah ... so I, I think that’s gonna be good. Um, so Abby was connected to this woman who dies now, this first victim.

Andrew: Yes.

Jennie: So was the, this victim involved in the women’s college?

Andrew: I don’t think so. At this point, you know, I think she was just kind of a friend of the family.

That’s something I need to, I need to flesh out a little bit more. But it’s, it’s someone that she visited regularly. Maybe she was a friend of, uh, her mother’s on some, on some level. I think she was active in the, the suffragette movement and the human rights movement in general because she’s, she was a bit of a thorn in Seward’s side when he, um, talking about the, uh, the rights of his patients or inmates at his, at his asylum.

Um, but yeah.

Jennie: She was probably friends of the mom.

Andrew: Yeah. I think so. I think so. [00:23:00] Um-

Jennie: Well, you know, it’s m- she might be too old, um, to be-

Andrew: I mean, they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t have been peers, but they might a- they might have met, yeah, they might have met in the cause, but then she probably would have told Abby about her mother being in the cause, so that, that would spoil that, that reveal that I had scheduled for later.

Jennie: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Unless there’s a reason that she didn’t want-

Andrew: Unless there’s a reason, yeah ...

Jennie: Abby to be involved or to, or yeah, wanted to keep her away from her mother

Right Maybe, maybe this woman n- knows the mother became a vampire and wants- Maybe ... to keep Abby away from her- Yeah ... mother ‘cause she’s scared of vampires and, and not trusting. That would, that would be- Hm ... a reason for her not to- Yeah ... tell a lot of stories, right?

Andrew: She knows, she knows Mina’s fate, [00:24:00] and so-

Jennie: Right

Andrew: wants to protect, again, someone choosing to protect Abby and trying to make decisions for her.

Jennie: Oh. So good. Yeah, this poor girl, right?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Jennie: But what I like also is that that makes her a very three-dimensional character.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: It’s not just, “I’m the nice old woman who- Right ... knew your mom and brings over- Mm-hmm

Andrew: casseroles.” Yeah.

Jennie: You know? It’s... Casseroles are probably not an English thing. Pies. What do they have? I don’t know. Pies.

Andrew: Pies and tea, mincemeat, some of that.

Jennie: Right. Yeah. Um, right, it, she’s complicit, and she’s got- Mm-hmm ... secrets, and so that’s cool that everybody’s not exactly who we think they are.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Jennie: I think, think that’s great.

Andrew: So that’s another secret for Abby to uncover. is who is the woman that was, that, that, that she, that she thought she [00:25:00] knew

Jennie: Um, and you added a little bit about the brother, I, I believe, um, which is that he, he’s kind of spineless. We knew that. Yeah But he agrees with this kind of order of things that Seward is trying to preserve and his dad stands for.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: He’s, he’s bought into this. Uh- Yeah.

Andrew: I’m, h- honestly, I’m struggling with Quince. Like, I’m trying, I’m trying to figure out if he’s just a failed ally, if it is something malicious, if it is benign neglect. Like, I’m trying to figure out, like, what his role is. I, like, uh, ‘cause I think at one point they were close as siblings.

They’re not far apart in age. I th- I think they’re, they were close as siblings at one point, and so is this just him kind of graduating into adulthood and assuming the mantle [00:26:00] that the generation of men before him are kind of pressing on him? Is he st- is he struggling with that internally? I... Is, is, does he...

You know, I think he, I think he does love his sister. I mean, that, like, to make things complicated, like, there is a lot of love in this book, um- Yeah. Love and not, yeah ... betw- between all, between all of these characters. And so I think in the end he’s not, he’s not a strong ally, and maybe even m- m- more detrimental than that to Abby and her, and her dreams.

But I, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know what Quince is just yet. Uh, do you have any thoughts about what you’re seeing in the outline about him?

Jennie: Well, you always wanna ask the question of any character who’s there-

Andrew: Mm-hmm ...

Jennie: how are they making things better or worse [00:27:00] for- Mm-hmm ... your character? Mm-hmm. And depending on the book you’re writing, you know, if this were a romance, we would want allies to lead Abby to love, you know?

Given that this is what it is, we would want allies to either help her solve that, you know, get to where she wants to go, solve the crime, and she’s got those. She’s got Mina. She’s got the friends that she makes. Um, y- you know, in some situations Seward actually helps her, you know? Mm-hmm. So I don’t know that she needs- allies.

So, you know, but it’s just like, why is he there, right? Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s like why does she even have a brother? And, um, in your story, it’s very much about the power that men have, the power that men- Mm-hmm ... wish to keep over creatures and, and [00:28:00] women, and all the things. Like, that’s very much about what this story is.

And, um, you know, it strikes me that the worst kind of, worst kind of thing for Abby would be someone she thinks is fighting for who- her who’s, who’s really not, and- Mm-hmm ... she certainly has that in, in Seward. Um- Right ... so maybe the brother mirrors that in a certain way, um- Right ... that I know what’s best, I’m a man after all.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: You know, uh, and to your point, he is the generation that Seward’s trying to secure the future for.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Right? Yeah, yeah. Young men will- Mm-hmm ... rise up and take control of the people- Mm-hmm ... and the creatures, and the institutions, and Quince is not worthy of that, for sure, but that’s- Right ... [00:29:00] what makes it interesting, right?

Yeah,

Andrew: yeah.

Jennie: He’s, he’s not, uh, he’s kind of a spineless, feckless, you know, guy who just by nature of his gender gets all this power.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Um- I don’t know if I’m- Yeah,

Andrew: and it- ...

Jennie: answering the question.

Andrew: No. Absolutely. Yeah, no, these are, these are all good questions that I have to, uh, that I have to consider. ‘Cause, like, I think, yeah, he definitely occupies a place of privilege.

Um, you know, his father owns a law firm, and, and Quince is going to inherit this law firm, and he’s gonna be the head of this law firm at, at, at some point. And maybe that happens during the story. I haven’t dec- I haven’t decided if, if their father is going to, to die over the course of this, uh, of this story or not.

And so what is the, who is the man that he is going, that he will become?

Jennie: So, yeah. I like that question, right? Yeah. Who, right, who is the man that he will become? And a scene that you might [00:30:00] want to write for your own self- Mm-hmm ... even if it doesn’t end up in the story, is the scene where Abby goes to her brother and says, “Help me talk to Dad.”

Andrew: Mm-hmm. “

Jennie: I, I want to do this thing, and, and I, he, you know, you need to- Yeah ... stand with me.” I’m just scanning through. He doesn’t, Quince doesn’t go to the funeral.

Andrew: He does not go to the funeral.

Jennie: So that’s interesting. Um- Mm-hmm ... yeah, so I would write that scene where she goes to him, ‘cause I think that’ll- Mm-hmm

tell you a lot. Is, is he like, “Yes, I will do anyth- anything for you, dear sister, uh, even confront our father”? Mm-hmm. Or is he, um, trying to talk her out of it, and she has something on him to get him to help her? You know, like, where, I think you’ll get [00:31:00] his position in that conversation. Um, you know, what... But I, you’re painting a picture of a guy who doesn’t have to do anything to claim his place in the family and s- in society- Mm-hmm

all the things, and I feel like he could represent what, why this is not a good idea for, um, this to be the way of the world.

Andrew: I, I, yes, I, I agree. I agree. And I really like that, I really like that idea of fleshing out that scene between, between Abby and Quince.

Jennie: Um- ‘Cause you’ll know. Yeah. And it’s, to your point, the texture of these relationships that are going to, to matter. But I suspect that... It’s funny, um, I’m thinking of a, a sister and a brother that I know th- that, uh, are very much like this, where this sister is just [00:32:00] sharp and strategic and on it and all the things, and the, and the brother is just really not...

Like, I know some people in real life like that. Yeah. You know? Yep. And so that’s an interesting dynamic, too- Mm-hmm ... is that she’s- Ah, clever and strategic and smart and, and all the things, and he’s not

Andrew: And he’s not. Yeah. He’s not any of those things.

Jennie: No. Yeah. So yeah, I would write that scene as a way to- Yeah

to figure it. Looking through, um... Yeah, some of my comments were about the, um, the deepening, uh, terror to, to make sure it feels like it’s closing in on her. So these messages she gets from Mina, does she know where they’re coming from?

Andrew: Not at first, no, and I’m still, like, trying to develop- [00:33:00] what the vampire’s powers are in my story.

Um, every vampire, every vampire story, every vampire novel does it a little bit differently. Um, I like the idea of there being some sort of, uh, telepathic element between, between, um, Mina and her, uh, and her daughter, uh, Brianna. Is that something all vampires can do for all, a- against all humans? Is it just because they have a mother-daughter, uh, tie?

I don’t know. And so, um, I still need to, I still need to flesh out what exactly vampires can do in my, in my, in my story. But I like that idea of her being able to just get inside Abby’s, Abby’s head, and not, like, force her to do things, but just, like, kind of whisper some advice into her, into her ear. Um, and I think, I think that’s the difference between what Mina is doing versus what the men around her are doing, who are trying to force her down t- a [00:34:00] certain path.

Mina is trying to encourage her on her own path, um, and, uh, and, and look out, and look out for, for, um, uh, for other dangers, uh, that, that she may not see coming.

Jennie: Ooh, that’s such a good point that you just made, that you don’t want this voice in her head to be another version of people telling her what to do.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: Um, and also the thing you’re pointing to here is a whole system of magic, basically. What is this- Yeah ... system of magic here, right? Yes, exactly. Um, I’m reading a book, um, right now, which I’m really enjoying, called Scorpica by J.R. McAllister. It’s- Okay ... it’s a series, it’s fantasy. Um, and there’s these, there’s a land with five queendoms, and, uh, it’s a matriarchal [00:35:00] society, and, um, we’re in crisis in this world because no girls are being born.

Uh, there’s like- Oh, okay ... they call it the drought. Um-

Andrew: Ah ...

Jennie: uh, so it’s a society ruled by women. No, no girls are being born. Mm-hmm. And there’re, um, there’re magicians. There’s these five lands, and one of the lands, there’s magicians, and they have, um- The girls are born with certain gifts or powers, um, and, and they have to figure out what they are as they grow.

That’s part of their, um, you know, what they must do is what is, what is my gift here? But, uh, I’m bringing it up because there is a, um, highest level gift, uh, that is the ability to get into somebody else’s mind, and it’s interesting- Right ... how it’s handled in this story, obviously a totally different genre- Mm-hmm

and everything from you. Sure, sure. But [00:36:00] it’s, it’s just interesting, um, when there’s a girl we’re following who has this power, and how she realizes it and how she uses it and, you know, it’s scary to, uh, to know someone’s thoughts. And, um, there’s so all kinds of dynamics involved in that. But the point that I’m making, not very well, but this, this book has so many layers of, um, systems that the author has worked out, right?

There’s a government system, there’s a system of, um, worship and spirituality, there’s system of, uh, war and, uh, fighting. There’s a fighting culture. Um, there’s a system of trade that plays a big part in it, and food, and like, I mean, that’s obviously what’s amazing about fantasy is just the depth of the- Yeah

the imagination that the author’s worked out. Mm-hmm. But I, I am telling you [00:37:00] that because the more thorough you can work out what the vampires can and cannot do, the better it’s gonna be for the story. ‘Cause I, I’m guessing that that’s gonna play a role at the end when Mina offers something to Abby, which is, “Come live with me.”

I don’t think it’s just, “Here’s a bed and a house,” right? Right.

It, it probably has something to do with these powers and- Yeah ... especially that what Abby longs for is agency.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Is that a way to get agency? That’s, that’s something I would think about is- Mm. So that her choice at the end is com- [00:38:00] complicated.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennie: So when you’re thinking about the- Yeah

magic, I would- Yeah ... think about how does it make her, Abby’s choice harder.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: What do you think of that?

Andrew: Yeah, and so, yeah, can the magic be transferred to, to Abrianna, I guess is the question, and- If so, would she have to become a vampire to get those powers, or would she, um ... Is it, um, is, is that what you’re suggesting the choice is then, is then to become a vampire and gain some agency and with, with this power, or to stay human?

Jennie: Yeah.

Andrew: And ... Yeah.

Jennie: Because Mina has ... So this is what’s so interesting, is that Mina has what the men have, or think they have, which is the ability to control people. [00:39:00] She could use that for evil.

Andrew: Potentially, yes. Yeah.

Jennie: Right? And I imagine some vampires do.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: So you’d have to make a decision about, like you said, do all vampires have this- Mm-hmm

mind? I mean, it’s really interesting because when you think about w- what do the vampires do? There’s literal entering of the body with their teeth. Right. Mm-hmm. Like, their ... And, and the blood. Like, there’s, there’s a line has been crossed. Yes. And what passes through that-

Andrew: Mm-hmm ...

Jennie: membrane, if you will, or that, you know, normally doesn’t pass between two people.

There’s no- Right ... um ... I mean, in some ways a mother conceiving a child is quite close to that.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Like two humans, [00:40:00] I don’t know what the word I’m looking for is. Intermingling?

Andrew: Right. Yeah.

Jennie: Uh, so yeah, these questions about do all vampires have that? Do they only- Mm-hmm ... have that once they- bite somebody or give blood- Right

to them? Yeah. How do- Do men, right, do men have it? Do, do- Do women have it? Like-

Andrew: Yeah, if they don’t all have it, how do they, how does, how is it decided that they get, uh, which, which have it and which don’t?

Jennie: Right, and did Mina get it by inheritance, by something she did, by accident? Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Did she get it, did she get it...

Yeah, did she get it from whoever turned her into a vampire, and so it is, it is kind of genetic that way? Um, so it is, it is something she could give, give to, to Abby.

Jennie: Right, and it’s gotta be, you’ve gotta also... This is why it’s so hard to write, y’all, right? Like- ... not only do you have to figure out this magic, but you have to figure out, is Mina, is [00:41:00] there a neutral or not neutral way of using this magic, and what is Mina doing?

Yeah. Is this the first time she’s used it in this way with her child? Mm-hmm. Or does she use it in this way every day?

Andrew: Yep.

Jennie: Do, are vampires forbidden from using it in this way? Mm-hmm.

Andrew: What is their, what is their code of conduct?

Jennie: Yes. Yeah. So it’s not just- Yeah ... the magic, it’s the- Mm-hmm ... use, use of it, and, you know, is, is Mina literally sticking her neck out for her child?

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: And, and this really, the questions really matter because you’re talking about a world in which there’s a girl or a young woman trying to not be controlled by the men-

Andrew: Yeah ...

Jennie: and to have agency.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: So her way out, I don’t think we want for her to be controlled by a woman. That, that doesn’t feel any better.

Andrew: [00:42:00] Right. No. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a, that’s a very good point.

Jennie: So interesting. So Mina’s got to guide Abby in a way that maintains her agency.

Andrew: Right.

Jennie: And then at the end, I think the offer has to be... And I, and that was what my comment was. I keep saying that that offer that Mina makes at the end feels like it’s kind of coming out of the blue or sticking out or something, ‘cause it’s not baked into the story.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: If it’s baked into the story, it’s gonna be like, “Oh, no, everything is resolved, but now she has- Right ... to choose,” or she has this incredible choice. I mean, it could be- Yeah ... really epic- Mm-hmm ... tragic.

Andrew: It needs, but it needs to be hard. Needs to be a

Jennie: hard choice. It needs to be so hard. It needs to be the hardest.

Mm-hmm. Harder, harder than everything she’s been through, I think. [00:43:00] I think you actually have created a more awesome and complex story than you even thought

Andrew: I think I have, and it terrifies me.

Jennie: Does it?

Andrew: A little bit, a little bit. Um, as I feel like the, the, the... as the story gets more complex, I’m introducing more characters, and I f- I’m worried that it’s turning in, I’m tu- it’s turning into, like, the worst parts of like, a, a, of a terrible Russian novel and, like, there’s just, there’s- I’m just worried that there’s gonna be, like, too many, there’s gonna be too many for, like, all the, for everybody to follow.

Like, “What the, who the hell is he talking about now? Who is, who is this person? Well, we haven’t seen them since page six. What is he bringing them in now for?” So, like, that, that’s something I, I’m, I, I have some, I have some concerns about, but, um, I can table those for now.

Jennie: Okay, so let’s recap about- Yeah ... what has to be done here.

So I would say keep writing. That’s, I think it’s a right thing to do. Good. But if you [00:44:00] can-

Andrew: Mm-hmm ...

Jennie: keep this document, like, maybe make a new iteration of it.

Andrew: Yeah, I gotta clean this up. This is... Yeah.

Jennie: Uh, the term that I use is it’s, it’s an as is outline. So that means you’re recording what you have. So- Mm-hmm

when you write the first scene, you go back here and you, you put in what you actually have, not what you wanted to have, but what you actually have.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennie: And if there’s something that needs to be fixed or changed or tweaked the next time through, you record that almost just as a bullet point.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennie: Need to go back- So up-

and XYZ.

Andrew: Okay. So update the outline as I write the, as I write the chapters. Okay.

Jennie: Exactly. So that then the question that you just brought up, like, “Wait, we haven’t seen this person since scene two,” or whatever, will be- Mm-hmm ... really easy to track. Okay. You’ll be able to look at the outline [00:45:00] and say, “Oh yeah, it’s true.

They’re, they’re not-” Yeah ... you know? Mm-hmm. And so this is where the outline grows to- Right ... nine, 10, 15 pages because you’re, now you’ve got the nuance, you’ve got the detail. So, so I would do that. And then the, um, the system of magic in the... I’m using magic just ‘cause I’m reading that other book Um, of, in the vampires.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: And, and the role that, that mean is going to play with the magic both in the story and at the end. And then the two other things we talked about were tightening down Seward’s worldview, um, cohesion, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That his, his reasons for doing what he’s doing, uh, a- all make sense to him in this [00:46:00] specific way.

And I would say in your own mind knowing, knowing the moment when he realizes he, he has to do Abby in in order to... That’s the only way to save her, you

Andrew: know? Right, yeah. Right, yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: Or to save- This is- The only way to save her

Andrew: is to kill her.

Jennie: Yeah, exactly. Or the- Yeah ... yeah, or, or the only way to, to preserve this worldview, she has to go.

Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennie: Um, and then the, the third thing was the, um, clues. Just the- The clues, yeah, yeah ... more sophisticated- Mm-hmm ... uh, understanding the clues. But if you’re feeling like you can figure out while you write, what I would love to see the next time is some chapters.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennie: If you’re willing to keep going.

Andrew: I am willing to keep going if you’re willing to keep reading.

Jennie: Well, well, it’s funny because listeners will hear in a upcoming episode about a [00:47:00] really interesting and funny, uh, experience I’m having with, uh, another horror writer. Um, this is not a horror- ... uh, podcast. I can’t barely even read horror, so it’s hilarious that that’s- ... that’s what’s happening here. But I’m gonna, I’m gonna do my best.

I’m with you. I wanna, I wanna read these scenes, and I think- Cool ... um, what we’ll do when we read those scenes is we’ll probably stop thinking on a systemic story level, and I’ll, I’ll do some m- more close line editing just so you can get a vibe for that and a sense of that. And then probably you’re just gonna go write the thing, and we’re gonna get- Great.

I know. We’re gonna- ... um, have our listeners be, uh, waiting for that to see how that goes. So we’ll make a- That sound- We’ll make a plan for some chapters. How about that?

Andrew: That sounds great. That sounds great. I love it.

Jennie: Okay. So for our listeners then, thank you for listening [00:48:00] and, um, for cheering Andrew on from afar as he wrestles this story into place.

We, we hope that you are, um, getting inspiration for your own, uh, wrestling. And, um, until then, uh, until next time, let’s get back to work.

The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:49:00] work